Curse

Konig Des Todes · Dec 21, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Eye of the North Manuscript

The Norn are a race of nine-foot-tall warriors who live in the northernmost Shiverpeaks. They revel in the harsh climes, leading dangerous lives among savage beasts. These mighty hunters are not organized into a single nation. Instead, those who display exceptional strength and prowess in battle establish homesteads, though they are certainly not considered "rulers". They often spend years at a time tracking a particularly strong or clever quarry; they never give up on a battle, a pursuit, or a friend.
The Norn revere the spirits of nature—from the wolf to the snow lynx—but the most powerful of these is the Bear Spirit, who, according to myth, blessed the Norn with the ability to change shape and "become the bear".

Norn and Humans

By general looks, aside from the two dominant attributes of the Norn, they look almost exactly like Humans. The only things that makes Norn not-so-human are the height (nine feet tall afterall!) and the ability to transform into were-creatures (at least a werebear, but possibly a werewolf and other were-creatures). So what exactly is the link to the humans?

I believe that the Norn are, in fact, distant cousins of the Humans. That back when humans appeared on Tyria, that a clan of humans who enjoyed fighting – possibly then they were the dominant followers of Balthazar – traveled to the Far Shiverpeaks where others went to Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr.

These humans became isolated from other humans over time, and through natural selection grew bigger to combat the stronger monsters and became more resistant to the cold.

Norn Magic

It is known that skills can be created (proven by Elementalist Azure in pre-searing and by Verata, along with the various other “named skills” throughout Guild Wars). So I believe that the Norn Form skills are a “special” kind of magic that was created by the first of the Norn – back when they still resembled humans very much – around or shortly after the distribution of magic.

At first, the forms were simply taking on the form of the animals around them – not the Norn Spirits. Overtime, as the True Gods became distant from the Norn, the belief became that it was taking on the form of their Norn Spirits – which “took the place” of the True Gods.

Norn Religion

Through the quest Wintersday Cheer – introduced in the 2008/9 Wintersday event – we can conclude that the Raven Spirit is at least related to Grenth.

I believe that the six “good” spirits – mentioned by Egil Fireteller – of Bear, Wolf, Raven, Ox, Owl, and Wurm are in fact different representations of the Six True Gods.

This is further supported by the Statues of Grenth near the Raven Shrine in Raven’s Point – or more accurately, answers why said statues are there.

If my theory is correct, than the relation between animal spirits and the True Gods are as follows:

Bear – Dwayna (Bear is called a “she” taking out the possibility of it being Balthazar, despite common belief; and Bear is seemingly the leader – at least the strongest – of the spirits)

Raven – Grenth (Proven)

Wolf – Melandru (The Wolf Spirit is a “tracker” to a degree, and can be said be linked to Rangers through that. With Ranger’s patron god being Melandru, the link is only commonplace)

Owl – Abaddon/Kormir (Owls are usually used to represent knowledge, so the Owl spirit linking with the God of Knowledge is only commonplace)

Ox – Balthazar (Oxen are usually considered to be strong animals, so it fits well with Balthazar)

Wurm – Lyssa (simply the last one left)

It is possible that Balthazar is in fact the Wurm Spirit. Due to having no information on the Owl, Ox, and Wurm spirits, it is hard to tell aside from common attributes given to said animals.

Of course, the animal spirits we see are not the real gods, but another set of Avatars.

The reasoning behind the different views of the gods could the separation from the rest of humanity for so long. Above I said that after so long, the shape shifting ability became less of taking on the form of nearby animals and then taking on the forms of the Norn Spirits, this would only be the case because the Norn, at some point in time, started viewing the animals higher than the True Gods – who have left the world long before.

The True Gods, seeing this, probably made Avatars in the shapes of these animals as a new way of communication.

I feel as though I am missing something, but I can't place it. If I remember, I shall add it on.

-Old 3FL- · Dec 21, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Nice detail on it.
I it's plausible, they do look like humans with the exception of height and their transformation skills.
(Not the mention their viking beards (male))

Fallen Royalty · Dec 21, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Very nice Azazel, I never put this together before. Good research.

lilraceangel3 · Dec 21, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

GJ on the research and nicely written!

realtalk916 · Dec 21, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

very interesting indeed

someone did their eotn Homework i asusme, but how did the norns get to 9 feet tall
and where did the owl and ox come in?

Breakfast Mc Rit · Dec 21, 2008, 02:29 PM // 14:29

This may be conflicting, since I would link Raven to Grenth, too, but perhaps Raven is also linked to Lyssa? Notice how he gives Raven trickster qualities. Qualities also given to Lyssa by her human followers.

Then again, perhaps the Norn never found the True Gods. They may have just harnessed the magics through their way of life; being one with nature. After all, they use all of these animals and could have come to attribute the animals' natural behavior to the different schools of magic.

I'd also like to make the argument that Bear and Ox may be Balthazar and Dwayna, and not the other way around. I don't know if I'd want to bring gender into it, as we know so little about their culture, but here it is...

Coupled with the bear's natural speed and fury, the Norn show an increasing display of force--a fighting spirit--whenever they transform into the Bear. That something I would not attribute to Dwayna.

Oxen, as you say, are strong animals, but their form shows resilience. They have a calm, resolving demeanor about them. That sounds more like the teachings of the monk.

Anyway, feel free to point out the obvious flaws in my arguments. I'm sure I missed something here, but I'm just too tired to find any proper support for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by realtalk916

very interesting indeed

someone did their eotn Homework i asusme, but how did the norns get to 9 feet tall
and where did the owl and ox come in?

Egil Fireteller makes mention of Owl and Ox. Azazel makes an explanation to the Norn's height; it is through natural selection. They are constantly looking for a challenging hunt, and their lack of armies would mean a small Norn is a dead Norn.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 21, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

This may be conflicting, since I would link Raven to Grenth, too, but perhaps Raven is also linked to Lyssa? Notice how he gives Raven trickster qualities. Qualities also given to Lyssa by her human followers.

There are also cases of Grenth playing tricks. Especially with wintersday. And Raven is accociated with the dead, and the Shrine to the Raven Spirit in Raven's Point is nearby Grenth statues. So I think Anet tried to make it pointblank obvious for Grenth to get someone to make this. It could be that they were all hidden hints from the beginning to start a Norn/Human connection, but no one ever really looked into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

I'd also like to make the argument that Bear and Ox may be Balthazar and Dwayna, and not the other way around. I don't know if I'd want to bring gender into it, as we know so little about their culture, but here it is...

Coupled with the bear's natural speed and fury, the Norn show an increasing display of force--a fighting spirit--whenever they transform into the Bear. That something I would not attribute to Dwayna.

Oxen, as you say, are strong animals, but their form shows resilience. They have a calm, resolving demeanor about them. That sounds more like the teachings of the monk.

This is all true, well, except maybe the Oxen part - I've never known Bulls to be of a calm creature.

But as I said in my OP, my reasoning behind contributing the Bear Spirit to Dwayna have many backings, and I can add onto them. A quick list of why I think Dwayna is attributed to the Bear Spirit:

The Bear Spirit is a female
The Bear Spirit seems to be the leader of the other Norn Spirits.
The Bear Form and Ursan Blessing give more health and armor than strength - i.e., more defense than offense
The Bear Spirit never shows any real hostility in either encounters.

The strength attribute more than likely is just a Norn culture influenced aspect, and not a real attribute of the Bear Spirit.

Next to look at are the skills Ursan Blessing and Bear Form:

Ursan Blessing:
gain 100 armor and 750-800 health

Bear Form:
gain 250 health and deal 25% more damage

What is the same between the two? you gain a lot of health. Ursan Blessing also gives armor, only dealing damage through the skills your bar changes to - which is needed out of game mechanics more than lore as you cannot have your build changed to nothing but heals when you usually should do damage (don't argue that monks don't have damage, because in Blood for Blood, you need to do damage, not protection, which is where I mean for the game mechanic). If not game mechanic, then the damage skills via Ursan Blessings could be attributed to the Norn and regular bears, and not the Bear Spirit.

From the Bear Spirit's attributed skills, it seems to be more intent on health and defense by 75% of offered abilities.

Also what must be taken into consideration with the Bear skills is the origin of the skills - or magic. Like I said in my OP, I believe the Form skills were made originally to go with the attribute of the animal, and later the Norn Spirits came and attributed themselves with animals.

As such, the strength aspect of both the form and the blessing would be more attributed to the animal than the Bear Spirit. As such, it could be that Dwayna just stepped into the role of the Bear Spirit far after the Norn attributed Strength to the bear. This would only be supported by the Bear Spirit not being hostile in any cases excluding the cinematic "Blood Washes Blood". But even in that cinematic, it is the Norn who say things like that, and not the Bear Spirit - we have no way in telling if the Bear Spirit said this as a hostile act, or as a way to redeem herself by punishing those who deserve to be punished. The later being able to be attributed to all gods.

Proof that the Bear Spirit is female:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Spirit

*Bear Spirit regards you gravely. If you are prepared to cleanse Jora's homestead of the Charr taint, then you must lead her into Bjora Marches.*

Codin The Great · Dec 21, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

that is very interesting indeed

I would have never knew those things about the norns.

Kemal X · Dec 21, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

When looking at the skills, there is more warrior skills that raise your maximum health than monk ones. Endurance falls more in the warrior section rather than monk. I find Bear Spirit (who, by the way, is shown as mesmer) to represent more Balthazar than Dwayna. Norns, who favour strenght above else, might think Bear (and thus, Balthazar) as leader over anything else. It's not written in stone that the rules of the human gods apply in norn precedence.

Breakfast Mc Rit · Dec 22, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

The Grenth statue could also be oversight, given the speed in which EotN had to be released. However, I suppose I would agree with you there.

Anyway, I don't need proof that Bear is female, I already knew that. What I'm asking is, does being female really have anything to do with it? I really doubt it, it may just be a coincidence. The most ferocious bears are mothers around their cubs; would the Norn, being so close to the Spirits, attribute them wrongly? Furthermore, we don't have any clues to the other spirits being hostile. This being the case, I wouldn't take these points as proof.

Avatar of Balthazar: You gain +40 armor...

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like a lesser form of Ursan Blessing--armor with no real damage boost. Another thing, such health gain and armor are things that more benefit the warrior class than monks.

Oxen, unlike their aggressive bovine brothers, are castrated males. Castration in animals is usually used to prevent territorial aggression, among other things. In oxen, which are used to plow fields, the benefits are docility. So while you've never known bulls to be of a calm nature, I'd wager you've never known oxen. Methinks Balthazar would take offense to this.

Toutatis · Dec 22, 2008, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakfast Mc Rit

Azazel makes an explanation to the Norn's height; it is through natural selection. They are constantly looking for a challenging hunt, and their lack of armies would mean a small Norn is a dead Norn.

Speaking in terms of evolution, the Norn's culture of hunting is unlikely to have had any impact on their size. Being bigger offers a smaller ratio of surface area to body volume, which in turn decreases the body's rate of heat loss. This is a major survival advantage in a cold climate, so this is more likely to be the reason why the Norn are larger than other comparitive species from more temperate climates (e.g. Humans). This also explains why many of the monsters found in the Far Shiverpeaks are bigger and tougher than the monsters found in the more temperate areas of Tyria. Size change can also evolve very quickly (within a few thousand years), so it's plausible that the Norn could potentially be an offshoot of Humanity.

The conundrum lies in determining when the evolutionary branch diverged. According to the timeline, Humans didn't appear on the continent of Tyria until 205BE. This puts Humanity in the right kind of area for 1283 years before players meet the Norn in EN. If the Norn and Humans are related, this time period is bare minimum for a few Humans to get to the Far Shiverpeaks and start evolving into the Norn we see today. As it's bare minimum, it's also likely that the Norn and Humans are not genetically different enough from each other to be counted as two distinct species, and the physical differences are not yet extreme enough to be a barrier to mating (the acid test for this will be whether Norn and Humans are capable of having viable offspring together). So, following that train of thought...

Hypothesis: Humans and Norn are different subspecies of the same species: Homo Sapiens Playerus and Homo Sapiens Nordicus (names are arbitrary for the time being).

Konig Des Todes · Dec 22, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

I was personally hoping for the biologist of this forum to show up and comment on that theory. I knew in terms of height difference it was possible, but wasn't sure in terms of different species.

I would have to agree that they are more likely different subspecies, while the same species.

As for the bear spirit relation to balthazar/dwayna. I am at a loss personally.

However, at the oxen comment, Fantym, I personally am starting to think that was a typo on Anet's part. I don't see the Norn worshiping a ox in comparison to a bull. Mainly due to an ox not being "natural" per se - i.e., castrated.

Starting to rethink the Norn Spirit/Gods relation a bit, and recalling a discussion in my guild in game...

"The Norn revere the spirits of nature—from the wolf to the snow lynx"

This makes me think that Egil doesn't mention all of the Norn Spirits, so there might be more then just 6 "good" Norn Spirits. This meaning that not all of the Spirits may be attributed to the gods - while some, such as Raven, are. Some Spirits may also be attributed to unknown deities, or deities who's place we do not know (i.e., the Great Dwarf).

Toutatis · Dec 22, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

However, at the oxen comment, Fantym, I personally am starting to think that was a typo on Anet's part. I don't see the Norn worshiping a ox in comparison to a bull. Mainly due to an ox not being "natural" per se - i.e., castrated.

I just checked the Oxford English Dictionary on this: the term "ox" can refer to any bovine mammal and not just the castrated bulls of B. taurus. The American Heritage Dictionary is in agreement with that definition.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 22, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toutatis

bovine mammal

...

-goes search "bovine mammal" on dictionary.com-

Oh, the animals of that family. I feel stupid now.

-should go back to learning things about animals-

Seri · Dec 29, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

The Norn humans would have to be isolated from humans, and then have a mutation which would cause them to adapt the the new surroundings better then humans, but as tuotatis said the only way to test the theory would be to mate humans and norn. *Wonders if there are any genetesist in tyria* :P

Konig Des Todes · Dec 29, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Well, due to this quest I believe it is in fact possible to mate a Human and Norn. And the Norn have been isolated from humans for a very long time it seems.

Seri · Dec 30, 2008, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Aye it would seem that way. Another thing that quest points out, I may be generalizing here but are norns bisexual ?

-Old 3FL- · Dec 30, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Bisexual? What makes you think that?

Seri · Dec 30, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Male Quest
When asked about quest: "Once you and I are married we can find that blasted leviathan and kill it together. I hope nobody beats us to it..."

and loneliness! I cannot be seen with you, much less marry you

Female Quest
-----same thing---- with minor tweaks.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 30, 2008, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Male quest you get from a female Norn (Olrun Olafdottir)

Female quest you get from a male Norn (Olaf Olafson)

I don't see how you get the bi-sexual thing. A male Norn asks a female Human in marriage, a female Norn asks a male Human in marriage.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Norn who are homosexual or bisexual, but not all of them. Same with any race to be honest.